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Jan 23, 2021

I sat down with Chris Hay of to talk about his journey through his 30's and how he plans on changing as many lives as possible with his new mastermind.



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Joe: My guest this week is Chris Hay, you can find Chris's website at Chris did some exploration during his 30s right after selling his company. He now just turned 40 in November of 2020 and he's working on a new project, a new mastermind, if you will. He has an acronym for the project he's working on and the mastermind he's building.


Joe: And it's H.E.A.R.T. H is heal and hear your heroic heart.


E Explore your genius. A accept your mission R rebirth yourself T take action and trust. I would encourage you to check out his website at and also get in touch with him at Please sit back and enjoy my conversation with Chris Hay.


Joe: My guest today is Chris Hay, Chris and I hit it off really well on a completely unrelated conversation to what we're going to talk about today. And during that conversation, we realized that we both are really excited about the same thing. And so I wanted him to come on and talk to us about that. He's originally from New Zealand. He's coming to us now from Barcelona, Spain, where he currently lives. Chris, welcome to the podcast.


Chris: Thank you so much. It's a great pleasure and honor to be here. And yeah, as I mentioned to you, I'm deeply grateful, particularly because this my first guest appearance. So I'm a little bit nervous, but I'm sure you'll go easy on. You know, I've got a lot of learnings that I've taken and been working on condensing down and really excited to share with your audience and and beyond. So thanks so much for having me.


Joe: Yeah, absolutely my pleasure. So if most of the people who have listened to any of my past podcasts know that for me, it's important to have the guest give their back story so that we understand who you are, where you came from, and it sort of lays the foundation for the conversation that we're going to dig in deeper about all that you're doing now and it new, exciting project that you're working on. So if you can't and this is great for me to because you and I have only chatted a few times, but it would be really cool to understand where Chris Hay came from and and where Chris Hay is going.


Chris: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much. So, yeah, an interesting thing happened to me when I was 31 years old in 2011, and I kind of feel like this is the beginning of the modern day part of my life with you. Life, like everything that happened up until the end was kind of a dry run or whatever. And then this one moment kind of feels like where I was sort of born again, if you like, what would become the, I guess, the middle part of my life or something like that. So basically, yeah, 2011. And I'm 31 years old and I'm sitting on the beach in Bali on my head, looking out on the most spectacular sunset. And I've come here to celebrate selling my business, which I've been working on all throughout my 20s, kind of leading up to this moment with this great anticipation that when I saw my business, you know, I'm going to have cash and in cash flow looks like the happiness. And as I'm sitting there looking out on the sunset, I just feel dreadfully lost and empty and just completely bamboozled, I guess for lack of a better word, that everything I've invested all of my hopes and dreams that I'm building up to this this milestone and then cashing out is going to bring all this happiness. And of course, it just doesn't. So that's right.


Chris: As I sat there and over the next three days while I'm on this vacation, I really was reflecting on my the paradigm change that had happened to my brain because I realized that concurrently I'd lost my purpose and my reason for getting out of bed in the morning, because previously I've had this business. Now I'm like, how am I going to do with the rest of the life? I'd also lost my identity to a large degree because I had been quite ripped off and invested in the identity of being like this 20 something year old, pretty successful entrepreneur. And now I'm kind of like shit. I just I don't even know what I'm going to do next and I'm going to go about figuring that out. But perhaps more than anything, I realized that I've really lost my art on how to find happiness. And and I really believe that this maybe not lasting forever, but like at least, you know, the golden boy that could last more than like five minutes or something like that. So as I reflect of all of that, I was talking about like, OK, where do I go from here? And I knew that it had to be something entrepreneurial because I don't want to go back and get a job like looking for the man. But I knew that I had to be about much more than just making money.


Chris: I had something much more impactful and meaningful and genuinely like helping people because my previous business, to be totally honest, like when I thought it, I really was pretty much just thinking about the money. That was my main motivation. So I reflected on all of this and, you know, and kind of sat there for the rest of this vacation moping around, kind of feeling sorry for myself. I really had no idea where to start and try to figure out how to rebuild my life. And and so it began, as I call it, has other people refer to it as the dark night of the soul. You know what? Tend to lock it up for me to be quite a long and painful, drawn out process that really, to be honest with you, lasted pretty much all of my thirties. Thirty one when I sold that business, I turned 40 in November, just gone. And so really throughout my thirties was this really intense and difficult period of introspection and and figuring out all the elements that I don't like about myself and other. I do like to myself initially, you know, and really learning deeply, but not just about myself, but about how I could show up and and and do work that I would love and have a positive impact in the world.


Joe: Can I ask you one quick question?


Chris: Yeah. Yeah, of course


Joe: So we hear this so often when someone that's successful. Right. And we always we hear from the wisdom of those who have accomplished something and they've reached some sort of financial stability and then they get to that point or they get to that moment of what they call success. Right. What they originally were striving for, which was the money and creating this entity. And then potentially, right? if you have a business, the goal is eventually to sell it in cash out on that and then maybe go to the next thing. Right?


Joe: But we hear so often that people get to that spot, they sell, they have the financial freedom, and then it doesn't it's not what they thought it was going to be. And I think that the hard thing for people that maybe haven't gotten to that point yet and the only reason I want to stop you here is because these things also get into my own brand, like what was more painful, struggling financially or getting to the point where you had the money and then it wasn't all that it meant to be like if you had the choice.


Chris: A great question. So it's a really good question.


Chris: So I guess I would like to reframe that question. What I'm hearing is like what was the greatest challenge was that the struggle for money or wasn't the struggle for meaning which came afterwards? Well, until I cashed out of that business, the money was the biggest struggle I'd ever had. Like struggling to build that business was the greatest challenge in my life that I've had. And until that time. But it was superseded by what came next, which was the struggle for meaning. And I think I don't know, I'm in for some lucky people, this might come a lot more naturally than it did for me young people or more successful than you. And whatever metric you might consider their success, whether it's financially or or perhaps a more holistic measure of success, is how well they've found their passion or the purpose or and ideally the combination of those good things that they sound like they're they're passionate about and are doing well financially out of it. I mean, that's the gold standard. I think that's what we're all aiming for. So for me, making money, making money was was hard making making money or like making it even just an income or a comfortable income that's good enough to live off and whatnot. Doing what you truly feel like you want to do is, I would say in some ways more challenging because it requires that you know yourself at a much deeper level, which can only happen with great introspection and then over time.


Chris: But in some ways it's easier when you find it because, you know, you might have people say that if you you find the kind of work that you're supposed to do on work that you love and you'll never feel like you work another day in your life. Right. So as you I think as you get closer to finding as you sniff it out and you're on the trail and you're kind of getting closer and closer and closer with the various projects you might be engaged in and then honing in on the work that you truly want to do that feels like play for you and makes you come alive. Then then I guess that part of it gets easier. And then you try to, like, build your skill level to a standard where the world will reflect the value back to you in the form of financial renumeration. That makes sense. That's a very long way of asking your questions. I would get into that, I guess, easier in some ways and more challenging in other ways. But certainly it requires a much deeper level of self-awareness, I think, which takes longer to get to just how do we get a product designed in China and sell it on Amazon, for example? I suspect that people are doing that.


Joe: But I mean, some people possibly will struggle their whole life. And it's unfortunate. And and I meant that like financially or also that they're not doing what they were meant to do on this earth. Right. So the choice is if you gave someone the choice of saying, OK, you can have you can. And the struggles usually are the financial part of it, the your health. And then it's whether or not you enjoy your life. And that means you're doing some. That resonates with your soul, right? Maybe those are the you know, there's probably more I mean, a million books and but if I think about myself, it's like, OK, I have my health. I love a lot of the things that I'm doing. And I might not be at the financial level that I want but I think if I if I have the choice, I'd rather be where I am and and and do this than to be financially free. But hate what I have to wake up and do every day. Right. So and I think the problem is, is until you get to the point where maybe you got to where you sold a company and you had some financial freedom, when people hear someone like you say, hey, you know, I sold my company, not just you, I mean anybody. I sold my company and I I made a lot of money and I got to the end goal of what I set out to do. And at the end, I wasn't happy. And if someone hasn't done that, they have a hard time relating to resonate with that.


Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, another way to put it is like at the end of last year, the year before last, now coming into 2020, let me sort of Zoom out again for a second that like this wasn't a one and done for me, you know, like after I sold the business and had this experience of kind of like reaching an extrinsic goal and, and finding that this feeling of emptiness on the other side of it, like you would think that that would be enough to kind of knock, knock, knock that paradigm completely out of my head and replace it with the new paradigm.


Chris: Only do things that are intrinsically rewarding. Which, by the way, science has found that intrinsically rewarding tasks, things that you would do even know that are rewarding in their own right for richer or rewarding motivation that leads to greater happiness. So if you can find if you can if you can pursue that, then you will be happier, even if you don't have to get to the high paying job in order to realize that it's simply just research around. Like, for example, is a Daniel Pink's Motivation 3.0, where he talks about intrinsic extrinsic motivation. So if you understand that, you will have a richer, better life experience by being driven by things like purpose and mastery and autonomy, then you can you can build that into your job, crafting if you're employed or into your business, if you're an entrepreneur. So you don't necessarily have to get to that milestone and realize that's what I started out by talking about how you think that having this experience once at such a deep level would be enough to kind of totally rewire your brain that you wouldn't make the same mistake again. But for me at least, and I think that it's common a lot in our culture, we're so hard wired to be motivated by extrinsic motivators, money, the trappings of success that add up that it's very that I didn't just learn at once like this has been.


Chris: I don't like the volition of my lifetime. After I sold that business and I vowed to myself that whatever the next had to be about more than just the money had to be more meaningful. I would still, for the several years that came up, that still pantelides that be like and tempted by lucrative opportunities. And I spent countless lost months and cumulatively is kind of going down the rabbit hole just like, oh, this looks like a, you know, an interesting business idea, which is just financially motivated and whatnot.


Chris: So I got to the point anyway, where I get before the last bout, or at least my New Year's resolution was to remove all extrinsic goals and replace them with one goal, which was in a piece, because I think that we oftentimes put in a piece or happiness on the other side of extrinsic goals, like when I achieved this milestone, then I'll feel happy. And when we do that, we you know, we pride ourselves on happiness here and now and then.


Chris: So that's the trap that I found myself falling into time and time again. And I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. And so. Now and when we have these big, lofty goals, it creates a friction as well, like where where the goal is and where we are now and then at least all of these feelings of inadequacy and lack of self-worth, because I'm not, quote unquote there yet, you know what I mean? So I'm still kind of trying to get my head up, to be honest, at the deepest level.


Chris: But I think that it's about kind of holding holding space for ideas and visions that you might have that you want to achieve, but also kind of being less attached to them, I guess, you know, so that they don't rob you of your happiness here and now and above all else, being present and being grateful for the moment. And and I've found as well and spoke at a lot of other people who kind of have the shared experience as well as like the more we do that and remove ourselves from this relentless rushing towards the goal that may or may not ever eventuate and leaning into the future and at the cost of sacrificing our happiness here and now, that the the the more we stay present, the more kind of, you know, without getting to work with, the more kind of magic shows up in our lives. But first of all, we just appreciate the moment more. So maybe, I don't know, you take time to go for a walk in the morning and smell the fresh air and admire your your neighbor's flower garden or whatever it might be. So you notice those things. But also and this is this is kind of borderline a move by magic can sometimes show up like synchronicities and whatnot. And so that's the one grand synchronicity that kind of unfolded in my life, which led to a deeper understanding of my work and my my, my my greatest gift that I feel that I've received and that I can kind of share with others. So I'm curious if you want to go there and share that story with you as well.


Joe: Yeah. So because I kind of interrupted you, because I wanted to clarify that, you know, if you've seen both sides, not everybody, I guess that was my point. Not everybody sees gets to both sections. Right? They either. And if they do that, like you said, they're they're either really happy doing what they're doing. And I think it comes when you're you're serving others where it's in alignment with yourself. Right. So if you if you have figured it out, which is really hard to do, but once you do and you can stick with it and not have it be like the way our world runs right now to be present and all the things you're talking about to be still and to leave space supercop. Right. We have so many things coming at us and and we're told to that you have to be really active out in the world of social media. And I'm just as guilty as the next person. But so it's really hard to wake up and take that one and walk past the flower and actually smell it. And it's just it it doesn't exist. It's really hard. Right. So I interrupted you when you were talking about how once you sold your company, there was through your 30s, you just felt like you were still trying to figure out how to find this this spark, this bliss, this inner peace. Right. So I guess that's where we're at now because I so rudely interrupted you.


Joe: But I want to. That's that's cool.


Chris: That's cool. Let me come back because I'd like one of the thought that kind of might help put a bow on this.


Chris: You know, this concept of what if you if you haven't kind of if you haven't if you've got to like you've made it financially yet, how does that reconcile with the experience about sharing? One way to look at it, I guess, is like Maslow's hierarchy. Right. Which at the base of the hierarchy are like food, clothing, shelter, all of those things. And then at the top is self actualization.


Chris: And in fact, about that and self transcendence, which is another category that I added to the to the in the twilight years, which is kind of little known and underreported then management textbooks. But it's an interesting concept that maybe will come later.


Chris: And and so there's no doubt that if you haven't made enough financial needs yet, then you're not going. The crisis of meaning is going to mean much less to you because you've got to cover those basic needs first. And so in some ways, it's like a physical problem, I guess, to a degree, like a crisis of meaning. But I still believe as did Maslow that if you are lucky enough to supersede the baseline financial needs and then if you don't feel like you've made it there yet, I would encourage you to reflect on if you if you really do need all of the things that you currently pay money for because you never get caught up in wrapping.


Chris: And spent a lot of money on unnecessary things. Maybe you can live on much less and then spend time instead of working to obscure things that are truly, deeply meaningful to you. And as you said, like figuring out how you can be of service to others while serving yourself as well, rather than sacrificing yourself to save others.


Chris: But at the top of Maslow's hierarchy, which is the apex of the human experience, is the self transcendence for giving yourself to. As Becca Franklin said, you've got a great quote where he says specialization is possible only as a side effect of self transcendence. So you can only become your best self by losing yourself in service to a cause greater than yourself, essentially.


Joe: Perfect. OK, so you're now when did you restore it back to the story?


Joe: So when did you get over that hump? Let's call it.


Chris: Yeah, so to be honest, like I'm still getting over, I feel like, you know, it's not going to take me. But there was one moment of kind of like a pivotal kind of, I guess, turning moment where I was at a personal development event in Hawaii. And we were asked actually Patrick Combs, I was attending one of his retreats in Hawaii and he was leading an exercise where he had us write our eulogy from the perspective of living essentially our best life from from this point forward. And it's been a really busy day. And it was the last thing at night like this. It was dark, dark outside and then back inside of us as we lay there on the on the ground and this little torch can light and to whatever would come to us in terms of how we're going to be remembered from from that point at our eulogy, having looked at our life from that point forward. And so I tried to empty my mind out. And really the only thing that I really like, I really believe that love is the universal connect, the one thing that we all share in common. And so I just wrote, Chris, touched a hundred million and I thought, I'll dream big ya know a hundred million people with love in this lifetime. And then I thought, this is my one chance to dream really big. So I added, an extra zero or zeros. So I made it like Chris touched one billion people with love in this lifetime. And then and I didn't really know exactly what they meant. I still don't really. But like, as I read it out and it will give me the opportunity to share with the rest of the group.


Chris: And as I read it out, I felt this wave of embarrassment like rush over and be like, oh my God, I made a fool of myself. Like we had a dream so big that I could possibly impact a billion people. Oh, my God. Fortunately, it was the last was the last exercise of the day. And I started back to my room and kind of like it under my pillow pretty much. And and then I woke up the next morning and I was still really grappling with the sense of shame and embarrassment of having this out. And I think it's big. And so I went for a run down to the beach and did a meditation on the beach. And then on the way back, I had to stop for a public restroom. And and I'm standing at the urinal, of all places. And I looked up on the wall and someone had drawn a love heart with wings. And it's like, oh, that's kind of weird. And then I like that. I look around the bathroom and actually someone had drawn love all over the wall so they hadn't noticed coming in. So they were expecting is like, what the hell? You know, like what what does this mean? And, you know, I grew up in like a very scientifically minded family. And so I try not to believe in woo woo stuff or synchronicities and that kind of thing in my life has been a screaming pattern recognition bias. You know, like humans, the brain is programmed to recognize things like that. And then as I reflected on it, but maybe the recognition from my brain or maybe just my desire to kind of leave or make sense of things, but I guess I chose to adopt that event as some kind of affirmation, a potential affirmation from the universe, that go all in ya know life like it was.


Chris: I let my mind go empty the night before when I had like to think about what I wanted to be remembered. And it felt like it was the source or the universe kind of speaking to me and wanting this. But I think this idea of this really is the most important thing. And I think that it's you know, I'm not sure if it's like I meditate a lot. Right. And and when I meditate, I feel what can only be described as love. And people will get that through prayer and maybe being in nature, watching a sunset, that kind of thing. But when you stop thinking in your mind goes empty, your serene, blissful, it's beautiful. And it feels to me like I can't think of a better word other than love. And so I don't know what love is, the fabric of the cosmos or the some underlying kind of fabric of human consciousness or both of those things, I'm not really sure. But there's something mystical about it. And and so I chose to adopt this as part of my story. And as I reflected on it more, I kind of thought, well, not only does I take this as an affirmation that the that I should pursue love and trying to make the world more love place. But I thought this this love with wings is an interesting motif because it love heart with wings. It's the same somewhere. It invites following.


Chris: And as I reflected on it, I thought of this Steve Jobs quote. That was one of the first videos that I developed, my kind of videos that I watched after I came home from from vacation in Bali. So my business always. Had earlier, and he has this great commencement speech at Stanford, I think, where he says this above all else, follow your heart and intuition that somehow already know who you truly want to become. And and as I reflected on that, that's like that, you know, through all of these trials and tribulations of my theories, trying to figure out who I am, how I can show up, how I can help other people, if there's one thing I can put my hand on my heart and say is that I really did follow my heart. And so and then I was on a flight. And you know how you get those quiet times on flights where you might be doing some journaling or whatever, and you just kind of get these flashes of inspiration. And and so I started to etch out what would become this framework around, like how to follow your heart and everything I learned about that. So, I mean, I did around an acronym for H.E A.R.T. H is heal and hear your hero heart and E is explore your genius, A is accept your mission,  R is rebirth yourself and T is take action and trust. And so yeah, like five modules and I really just the greatest joy of my life to try to condense down everything that I've learned over the last decade and, and try to make something beautiful out of it, out of all of that struggle. And I guess I kind of relate back to your initial question. You know, is it easier to make money or to make meaning? And then I guess of that is like, you know, what's what's more gratifying? And in my experience, you know, like this is this is brand new. And I'm actually looking for beta test people to kind of come and be guinea pigs with me. But this has been the most meaningful and interesting and validating experience of my life. Like it's the gift of stuff to everything I've learnt, really, to teach.


Joe: Yeah, that's awesome. So ultimately, you're going to I know where you're going to think of a name for for all of this or you have ideas, but we're not we're, like you said, is being transparent. This is new. And we didn't want to like for some sort of title to this, but you you had it.


Chris: Maybe it's like maybe it's like your back to your greatest destiny or I'm playing with, like, discover your destiny or something like that.


Chris: Now, one of the things that I left out is like this thing about the love and making the world more complex and following your heart is that I think like love is the language of the heart. And I think that when you follow your heart. When you follow your heart and you find the work that you feel called to do. That can be your greatest conduit, one of your greatest conduits for love, I think you create that work with the motivation of love and you serve. I think you end up serving people who who who resonate with your story and to appreciate what you've gone through and probably going for something similar. And so you have empathy for them and in their case and you want to help them. And so that feels like love to me. And so I really like your vocation can become like one of your greatest battles that you have for manifesting love. And so if you believe that, as I do, that that love is the solution for most of the world's problems, then I believe that by following your heart to find your ultimate vocation that brings you to life the most can be your your heart. Your heart knows the way to those people who you truly want to become, but also how we can create a more loving world in the process.


Joe: Yeah, and it's really interesting that I know as young adults and I've I've put up a post about this on certain Facebook groups that I'm in and I've reflected on this a lot, which is in the day and age that we're in now, there seems like we are. We're constantly trying to fix something that's broken, right, and it's usually and I'm talking individuals, right. Saying that we we get to a certain point and we realize, like you, when you sold your company, like many of us, when we hit certain points in our life that this isn't right. This doesn't feel right. It's not making me happy. All of the things that go through your head and I keep thinking, gosh, I wish we could just get to. The young adults earlier, like just this whole thing shifts from where it is here all the way, like they just take anything that any of the people that you and I know are doing or the people like Tony Robbins, the work that he does, Dean Graziosi, you know, good work Patrick's doing with Eric. If we could take all of that and just slide it earlier and just and I know that at a certain point, the young minds are not they don't have the attention span for there they are don't have the interest in it. They're not mature enough to understand it yet.


Joe: But there's got to be a point where if we took all of this and just brought it way earlier in the life span of a human and just got to young people early and said, listen, before you get to where all of the rest is, not everybody's like that. Some people just find what they were meant to do and a really young age and are happy and life is grand. I would say the majority don't. They wander around really lost for a really long time. And the only thing that they always seem to gravitate to is making money. It's all financial and just and so they go down this path and then they come to realize later in life that that didn't work. But then now we're in like repair mode, right? Instead, it's like, God, if we could just figure out a way to guide young people to saying, listen, we can tell you now that money is not the answer. It's following your heart. It's being nice to people and loving and caring and empathetic and transparent and having integrity and all of those things that that if you could learn those and navigate that, all the rest will come to you because you're deserving of it, you know. But it's just it's such a frustrating thing for me.


Chris: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it reminds me of a story I wanted my friend Raj. He has a similar kind of story, wildly successful coffee company and business empire, really at the stage. But he was looking for an oil company when he graduated college. And one of his mentors within the company was a guy who was 60 or something like that and really didn't have a huge passion for the work. But he had another interest outside of work, which was now. But it was maybe it was, I don't know, like wood work or something more textile that he wanted to do with his hands. And he was always talking to to do this when I retire. Yeah. And then and then he passed away like that at age 60 or whatever and never reached retirement. You know, for my friend Raj, that was it.


Chris: That was like that was that was all he needed to kind of be like, I'm not falling into that trap. You know, life is for the living. So. Yeah.


Chris: And then they kind of back on what started out by saying where you we could only get this information at the end to people to get younger.


Chris: If you're younger and you're listening to that's the one thing that I guess would encourage you to do as well as following your heart or maybe even kind of in tandem with that or another way to frame it or it even comes before following your, following your heart is kind of a, you know, a slightly amorphous kind of thing to say I'm cognizant of that. But I think following your curiosity is a great, great place to start. And so, like for me, having sold my real estate business and then I had no idea that I was going to end up essentially in the personal development space, you know, like where I come from in New Zealand. I've never met a life coach in my life, know what I mean?


Chris: I didn't even really register for me that that was a viable option. So for me, it took me a long time to put the two together and go, oh, my God, like, what if I could teach everybody? But what if I could teach people, for example, in a word or, you know, some light on a dark night of the soul or some of the challenges, everything I've learned how gratifying that would be for a long time to get to that place. And I would but I wouldn't have got there had I not followed my curiosity and my curiosity in the first place was for personal development content. And so I sold that business and that that watched that Steve Jobs video.


Chris: And and that was the aspect that the next several years were just a whole kind of personal development books and YouTube videos and everything I could get my hands on to try to figure out myself and and and and so following my curiosity, whatever your curiosity is, I'm read a...


Chris: I look, I had an awesome video interview with Common, the rap artist Common A...just a couple of days ago


Chris: But I was out walking my baby and he was talking about the same concepts of essentially service as being of service and finding your greatest gifts and getting them to give service to others. And he would say, you know, he started out in music because he enjoyed it.


Chris: It was for him it was therapeutic and it's cathartic. It was fun, playful. And I guess he was following his own curiosity. And the people say, follow your passion. I don't. What are you curious about? What are the books you read? What are the experiences you'd love to have? Where might you love to travel? How would you like to speak to if you have the opportunity? Follow your curiosity and so Common followed his passion for music, curiosity and music and then realize how it could benefit other people, you know, how their audience are reacting to it was obviously resonating with them and giving them an emotive experience and and giving giving the audience joy. And then ultimately the cash comes as a result of that. So that's like one of the really interesting models that I discovered along the way as well. And you can look back up that it from what I saw this one talking like I was talking about basically the the default model that we have in society for happiness essentially is wrong.


Chris: You know, it's based around Do Have Be like you think of that and like you do whatever it takes to have the stuff that you think you need houses, cars, material possessions in order to be happy. Right. But but if you flip that around a there's another interesting models, which I would advocate for, which is Be Do Have and I'll explain that essentially and be happy now and the research cutting edge cognitive psychology research actually shows that when we are happy, here are now, happiness and optimism fueled performance and achievement. So if you're interested in that, you can look up a book called The Happiness Advantage by Shawn Achor where he really dives deeply into that and finds that when get when you show up in it and a happy, optimistic state where we're trying to perform, you know, we're more open minded, we're more creative, all that stuff. So be happy now and don't put happiness or a piece on the other side of extrinsic goals. Extract the self evidence now and then find. And so then. So that's Be and then the next step is to Do so, do what you love. And if you don't know what it is you love to do yet, I would say follow that curiosity.


Chris: And when you do what you love, ultimately your as Steve Jobs says as with all matters of the heart, you'll know when you find it. And Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi has a wonderful called Flow where he talks about the flow of state that that athletes get in when they're playing, that painters are in when they're painting, musicians are in when when they're making music. But also, you know, in other professional fields that are kind of elite that everyone could find themselves doing, can be employed when they're cooking or a coder is in flow when they're not coding and a designer is and flow when they're designing and people who have podcasts are probably in flow when they're in conversation. And so for that flow state is where we create point. So if you can find work that you if you can find work that brings you into flow in that flow, stay with time disappears and then you kind of lose focus or lose touch with the outside world and you're just lost in the work like that is that's when you know, you're you're on the right path and that's that work that will never feel like work. It really feels like play. And so then the final stage of this model, be happy now through the work that you love, will do the work that brings you to the flow.


Chris: And then Have and so the keeping with the Have and this model, that is the first one where you're doing whatever is necessary in order to have now you're happy and you're doing what you love and Have part kind of like follows you, magnifiers into you because you're doing your best work, which is in flow. And then eventually, sooner or later, when you can have certain degree of competence at that, what the world will reward you people will take notice. And I'll be like, holy crap like Joe's podcast is amazing and this other work that Joe does, he obviously loves doing and shows up with this immense passion. It's like so inspiring. I want to be a part of that. Like tell me how I can be one of Joe's clients, you know, and the money kind of gets magnetized to you. Becomes a by product rather than if you're going out to get the money, you're going on to do what you love and be of service and and yeah, yeah,


Joe: It's very interesting because I'm doing some work now in my own career. And part of it is the piece with Russell Bronson and and he just talks like he literally today's live webinar that we did. He literally got on there and right out of the gate, he was like, if you are here to make money, you're in the wrong place. It was like, I am here to get you to shift your mindset and to figure out what it is that you are here to do and how you are here to serve others. He goes, and when you figure that piece out, all of the rest falls into place. And it's in it's kind of like the whole thing where the universe gives you more of what you what you think about and what you are attracted to. And so if you are attracted to complaining and feeling like he woe is me and all of those things, that's what it delivers more of. Right. So if you shift it and say, listen, the more and more people I can help, the more and more love I can spread, the more and more whatever all of that goodness just it just naturally happens. Right. And then all the other things fall into place. But it's just it's really hard for us where we are in our lives again. God, if I only knew that 20 years ago or 30 or whatever, I just if that's what's really frustrating. So yeah. And I want to get back to what so what you're doing this work that you're doing and what you're about to offer to the world and present. Right? What in what form is this going to be and is it is it going to be a when you said you want beta testers, is this a course that you're going to run people through? Is, is...explain that piece of it to me.


Chris: Yeah. For sure. So I'm thinking of a 90 day program, OK, 90 days. And like the small group, you know, maybe in four or five or ten people and and basically just a donation, more or less, if you like. You know, it's not about the money, but I think if somebody pays some money, at least, you know, they'll show up in a more committed way. So whatever, whatever potentially whatever people are can afford or are comfortable with, you know, I think it's such an important material that and my passion is to get it out to whoever and not let people be hamstrung if they think they have limited financial means.


Chris: So, you know, some some very big price point. And and, yeah, I think I think a 90 day program to start with is enough to really get people pretty deeply set and the concepts and really understand all the stuff at the same level. And and then you want to go take a longer than the one year thing or even a month or whatever.


Joe: And what's the product going to look like? Is it going to be like in a Facebook group? Is it on your website? Is it some piece of software developed or basically the kind of like a mastermind where in a training environment where we'll have a small group and then just meet every week, once a week or 90 days, and then we'll have like a Facebook group? Yeah. So there are these five modules where we'll be stepping away, moving through these for scale. And er and so just real quickly, like what I mean by something which like you're familiar with The Hero's Journey, Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey. Yes, so like Star Wars and every major blockbuster movie is basically written according to this format where there's a hero in there, you know, they're at home, they're in their safe, nice, warm bed, more or less like the hobbits in the shire and then some there's some catalyst and that call to adventure and they go out where they need allies and enemies and face obstacles and overcome these. And in the process, they gain the kind of awareness of self and and ultimately face their biggest fears and then come back, return home, essentially with the power to bestow upon their common man, as Joseph Campbell would put it and so it comes from all of humanity, oldest mythology and whatnot.


Chris: So Joseph Campbell wrote a book called "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" where he kind of discovered all of this and then Lucas was it, Lucas who did it wasn't Star Wars was one of the first to really adopt it into a major motion picture. But it's a really interesting frame sort of to do your life for.


Chris: And I guess I argue that it's not just for the movies, but I mean, there's a reason why we kind of resonate with the parents and movies that we admire their courage and and their following of their heart, really, to face their demons and ultimately return home and take a bit of vision of themselves and able to help their fellow people.


Chris: And so part of the way that a lot of work around the growth mindset and process is fixed mindset and how if you think you can if you think you can, can. And the difference between fixed and a growth mindset. And I would argue that this is, you know, viewing yourself, doing your, um as Joseph Campbell puts it, that you are the hero of your own life story. And so I believe that viewing yourself in the spy or even just playing with this concept of like viewing yourself as the hero of your own journey and that you have to face titanic challenges and surmount them, and then how can you grow and what you learn as a result of that? And how can you benefit benefit other people with what you learn as you go through this personal growth, like viewing your life through the ______ lens? I would say the ultimate growth mindset and then the H is the Hear and heal your heroic heart. And hear is what I heal is, you know, they say we can only love others as much as we love ourselves. So this is like developing self-love and really becoming more compassionate with yourself and improving your internal narrative and and and being more loving for yourself so that then when you find when you move through the process in the program and you figure out the work that you do, you'll be showing up from a place of love and then to hear your heart, you know, this is around like tapping into your inner wisdom for journaling and meditation and stuff like that, and then explore your genius and some of the stuff that really cool down a little bit around discovering your superpowers or your own zone of genius, as Gary Hendricks put it, as opposed to your zone of excellence and sense of competence and so on, which is so like separating out like what you're truly genius, that which is others activities that bring you into flow most often and do everything you can to structure your your work life around those tasks and get rid of everything that drags you out of that.


Chris: And then accepting your mission is built around something that's a rarity and a little bit around like Maslow's hierarchy and how we can only self actualization as possible, only as a side effect of self transcendence. So so to serve and truly contribute to others is how we how we could be the best selves. And we see this in our political leaders and so on. If you think of like Nelson Mandela or Gandhi, Mother Teresa or some of these people, these icons that we really admire, what do we admire about them? We admire and how much they've been of service to other people and the effect that they've had.


Chris: But it's not only political leaders, also business leaders and business leaders, for example Elon Musk said that coming from PayPal, he thought to himself , what are some of the other problems that are most likely to impact the future of humanity, not thinking what's the best way to make money? Interesting. I read an article a couple of days ago where he's just surpassed Jeff Bezos as the world's most wealthy individual you know obviously on the rise of the electric car and stuff, but everything's happening with the climate. But so, yeah, accepting your mention is about like figuring out how can you how can you tell what, A, that you might give you a life for? Ultimately, what do you care about more than you care about. What would you do even if you knew you would fail the kind of thing in a mission that is so big that you could spend the rest of your life pursuing it and still be satisfied, even if you didn't fully realize it, but contributed what's towards it and then R stands for rebirth is really just like stepping into that new identity because there's a lot, you know, people will know you as they've always known you and expect you to be, and they always thought you were kind of thing, but when you step into your life, it's great. It's worth a lot of that has to change. And so dealing with the fallout of some of those relationships that need to change and and also how to pursue the new relationships that will move forward and surround yourself with, you know, people who won't let you fail and then finally take action and trust.


Chris: So that's kind of what it sounds like to get your thesis around. Like holding each other accountable and having a part of this program will obviously have accountability groups and have a positive peer pressure that would show up. And and if you want to do not do the thing that last week you said you were going to do, that was going to move the needle for them on your most of most important projects.


Chris: And then. And then Trust and you're finally, just trusting. And I guess that's the slightly mystical thing, you know. And when I talk about the trust, I talk about that event that happened to me in Hawaii and how that invited me to trust to put aside my rational left brain scientific thinking mind and believe that just maybe, you know, the universe might be conspiring to bring great things about for people who have other intentions.


Chris: So, yes, that's it.


Joe: That's awesome. And I guess it's safe to say you're in rebirth mode, right?


Chris: Yeah, exactly. You got that? Yes.


Joe: Well, awesome. OK, so what is the website URL? I'm going to put it all on the notes, but I just want to make sure.


Chris: Yeah, yeah.


Chris: It's love work revolution so


Chris: And so the word revolution is an interesting one to talk about how I think by following your heart you can find the work that you love and that will bring more love into the world. And then the revolution piece is Gallup, which is a research institute there in the States that are really a massive survey where they interviewed hundreds of thousands of people and found that I think it was. Eighty seven percent could be slightly wrong. And that's in the 80s, 80 something percent of people are either disengaged or actively disengaged in their work. So there's so many that's a disaster not only for the personal suffering of all those people who have to show up for work that they hate every day. But the the untapped human potential, that's just going to waste because people are sitting there, like, not really giving a crap about what they do. And and and at the same time, you know, humanity faces all these immense difficulties and challenges that we face globally around like climate change and poverty and all these really meaningful causes that people could engage with. And that's what we're languishing doing so we don't care about. And Malcolm Gladwell in his book "Tipping Point", found that there's a there's a kind of a magic number around like 20 percent. Like when 20 percent of people latch onto an idea, then there is a tipping point it can spread for the rest of the community.


Chris: So, I mean, the margin of people who are disengaged in their work in the high 80s and the number of people who need to be defined to do what they love in order to create a revolution or a tipping point, and where we can see a sea change, where it's written for the rest of the population is around 20 percent.


Chris: So there's only about six percent of people that we have to move to find work that they love, an create a more loving world. So that's why I So co


Joe: Ok, cool. So I'll put that in the show notes if someone wants to become a part of this, what is the best way for them to get in touch with you


Chris: Yeah just shoot me an email, it's Chris, C H R I S at 


Joe: Perfect, awesome! Ok, and then I'll get all of this in the show notes. And I wish you luck with this. I know this this is it for me. I can tell how it comes out of you. I see your eyes light up and you just you just know. Right, that this is what you've wanted to do. And this is this, this speaks to you, so and I think it's going to be amazing. I'm glad that you've decided to do this. And I look forward to seeing this blossom and help a lot of people out there.


Chris: Thank you Joe like so much today. Today's been a big deal for me, as mentioned, this is my first podcast interview talking about this stuff. So I just really appreciate you giving me space and letting me connect with the audience. And as you mentioned, you know, you can tell what this is it for me. And it really is. You know, this is the last 10 years of my life kind of accumulating and coming full circle and to, you know, in my way of making meaning and purpose and sense out of all of the struggle of the last 10 years. So needless to say, I am deeply passionate about this and intend to do this for a very long time. And so I look forward to several years from now when, you know, you and I can catch up and have a beer together and say, hey, remember that time I was, I was on my first ever podcast with you. So I really appreciate you having me, man. Thank you.


Joe: Yeah, it's absolutely my pleasure. Glad to be here in the beginning of all this will actually get to see it, turn into something great. And I'm looking forward to it. So, Chris, thank you so much for taking the time. I know it's late there in Barcelona. It's probably been a long day for you. And it was really nice to talk with you. And I was super, super excited about this for you. And again, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens.


Chris: Thank you. Peace and love Joe and to your audience, thanks for listening.


Joe: Yeah, OK. We'll talk soon. Thank you.


Chris: All right. Bye for now...